Im also a bit a sad with respond of David (elder) who is in the leadership role to show the love with staring at the congregation (may be because of challenges). As a result, at least 19 diocese and religious orders have had to file for bankruptcy. And this is important. You guys can rip apart our church and Todd all you want, but I know him, and you wont find a man with more of a heart of gold than him. Pastors often receive the most judgement and its rarely considered that they likely face the most spiritual warfare. He did end the video by defining what HE thought the three marks of a cult were: Im going to address #3, because I did my own Google search of the Dallas County Central Appraisal District and discovered that Todd Wagner lives in a $1.5 million dollar home in a very prestigious area of Dallas. I highly recommend that you watch the video, because if you watch it with just the tiniest bit of scrutiny, you will notice Todd Wagner work some word-magic here. We know a number of people who attend Watermark due to our 10 year stay in dallas. A lower court has already ruled that the church is free to release private information about its members. In our church, this is clearly laid out during the membership process. Hello, Scottie. Evangelical Church. Secondly he says that even Jesus himself said things that might be considered cultish: If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26. Or you perfect? For much of Wagners speech in the video, Leventhal did not look at Wagner, but stared straight ahead. In my opinion, its best to have the teaching statement serve as the unifying statement that covers both members and elders, so that those who attend and who are working through their beliefs dont prematurely sign a membership covenant that in reality places them under the pastoral authority of elders who adhere to the teaching statement. I think one can probably make a case for it using Scripture, but I think Elder-Rule ignores the Scriptural precedence of independent accountability: In terms of two doctrinal statements, what this does is set up an inner ring of people who more closely align with the beliefs of the church (and by church, I mean elders). utterly un-credible. Not that difficult, really. The preacher they were to install couldnt preach well. Shame on you folks. Aside from the fact that it was gifted to him (alarming at the very least) it shows poor stewardship and lack of humility on Wagners part. The building was used for free to us (but not them). Plan Your Visit Discover Watermark Membership Events Watermark News Articles Watermark en Espaol. Unsure why he is getting criticized for living in a house that is experiencing uber appreciation b/c of the school district it resides in. Toward that end, the site requires that people use their full name when commenting. Keep in touch with Julie and get updates in your inbox! Take advantage of extra customization tools by signNow. Dont need the large meetings with rock music and parking headaches and entertainers with impulse control issues claiming its the Holy Spirit in them. its raw observation on your part you arent being led at all. Our church does Re-engage and we love it. Does anyone find this highly hypocritical? i dont believe a word he says. And some community groups are less intense. Yeah, I glanced at it. that is, if we keep Jesus Christ as part of the equation, with an understanding that more is incumbent on leaders than on others. As for the doctrinal statement issue, I see what you are saying. the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. But, we ALL should be. And, have peace and unity. Its almost as if Mr. Wagner is concerned that more detailed information will come out. God has allowed the clarity and conviction that we need, that I need, to serve well in this role to dry up, Wagner said. Still havent found a church I like since. If you dont want to be a member at Watermark you dont have to be.Read more , There is a difference between positional authority and spiritual authority. Ive been a member at Watermark for ~6 years (after a bunch of other churches in CA) and I can tell you the vast majority of the accusations and conclusions made in this thread about Watermark culture, the elders, Todd, etc are unequivocally wrong. I promise Im not trolling yall. These resources are found in Appendix V and Appendix VI at the end of this case study and in the clarifications given by Watermark in the section Watermark's Response to the Nation. ingratiating and wheedling in a way In this murky situation, however, the two men dont need honorary titles. Take Your Power Back we all know many invested their heart and lives into this place, only to be punished and abused when their performance was not up to the public image WM wanted society to perceive of their organization. In January, Wagner returned from leave to preach his first sermon and received a standing ovation from the congregation. I have however heard Todd Wagner say from the pulpit if youre not comfortable giving here thats ok, please give somewhere meaningful to you. You can tailor it to your groups needs the equity in a $million+ home can be invested to provide hot meals, warm beds, jobs, training, and more for years. Not to mention that even if the words are perfect its up to the listeners as to how they interpret it. The only thing I can discern between the lines is that something went very wrong. Fournet is now listed as an elder emeritus, but Bucheck no longer appears on Watermarks leadership page. Not sure how much of a money maker it is since all we spend money on is the workbooks. Theres no independent authority (like a congregational vote or a higher denominational officer) that can remove an elder in this government structure. 4774 sq ft house. Did You Know This Church Is Closely Aligned with 9 Marx (sic) If you dont fill out the form you can leave easy if your just quiet. At the beginning of each year our membership goes to zero. Regardless Lords will be done Prov 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. We have ministry partners with boots on the ground, helping to love and serve others by meeting their immediate physical and spiritual needs. He publicly criticized other local church leaders and called them out in the media and then doesnt really share his issues. But, a money maker? Both Wagner and Leventhal will remain at Watermark as elders emeritus. Ive never heard of nor attended a church with such a position. As per usual, all white and all males. Its inappropriate and wrong for a pastor serving the church to live an opulent lifestyle. I guess we just arent ALL as brave as Todd to resign or be open about confession or a need to step back. Does anyone know if the Re:Engage marriage program that Watermark started is worthwhile? I first visited Watermark in 2005 when they were still meeting at a high school in Dallas. If I had to guess the Sr Pastor Todd agreed to leave if the concerned pastor Steve agreed to resign. True humility is replaced with a very shallow and false one and so they humble brag about how big a crowd they can draw. Im sorry Todd but Im praying for you and your family through this rough times. Im saying that outta love and also saying it truly saddens me to see many of you have hardened your hearts. Our Staff Team serves, equips, and deploys the saints to live on-mission for the glory of our King. In His end the crowd that He drew wanted to see Him tortured to death in the most cruel way possible. obey your leaders? I am so tired of the evangelical industrial complex justifying there greed and sexual abuse and bullying. The level of absurdity is a bit high here Im a member, not once have I been asked to fork out my money, not once have I been forced to makeRead more . If youre short on time, start at 27 minutes when the speakers starts explaining why people think Watermark is a cult. They refuse to be honest so they can make a come back in a year or two. If not? It was meant to jerk everyones chain. In the video, Wagner said that the clarity to step down was not hasty, adding that the discernment process had started a year ago. Susan felt it was ironic that I had made a comparison between Scientology and Watermark Church, because she said those same comparisons helped her realize that she was not in a healthy church. If the things she claims were stated from the pulpit are true, there should be plenty of documentation. To become a member, there are certain things with which a person has to be in agreement, of course; but if a person becomes an elder, then what is expected is more clearly defined. Women have gotten to the point where they thing their poop doesnt stink lately. . Also resigned is David Leventhal, an elder and teaching pastor at Watermark, who said he had lost trust in Wagners leadership. To demand that a victim produce evidence is a form of revictimization. John Doe's attorney says his client is now considering a civil lawsuit against the church for slander.7 Wow. How many have you all lead to Christ? They were not giving Him a standing ovation. have caused them to *go astray,*. I went home and felt a renewed sense of spirit. Thats the other dallas todd wagner who is mark cubans partner. It is Not referenced as a legal tool which may be weaponized against anyone they desire to control or experiment on. I was a messed up kid at that time and Todd was the worst counselor ever. A church membership contract errr. XPastor recommends readers take special note of the resources provided by Watermark about the issue of Care and Correction. Thanks for sharing. I believe this man would help many, I can say that without shadow of doubt. There is forgiveness for a church also and I hope they are humbled one day so they can grow past some of there root issues. You CANNOT, however, attempt to withdraw membership to avoid church discipline. In September 2020, Wagner announced he was taking a leave of absence to work on pride issues. How do you know Todd pays that? My soul was touched. Our church has an elder-type rule that is healthy, but I know of churches that have had an elder-type rule that is not so healthy. Watermark Churchs membership process first requires that you sign themembership covenant, which oddly enough, you can do online. No its not. Spiritual authority has nothing to do with title, education, or rhetorical ability (2 Cor 10-13). Wagner founded Watermark in 1999 with the expressed purpose of ministering to "the unchurched, dechurched, dead-churched and unmoved." The church grew rapidly and now has campuses in Dallas, Frisco, and Plano. He was then the most arrogant and disrespectful person imaginable. Amazing indeed! And thanks for the word smarmy. Forgot account? Its upto Him. Sure Todd is challenged this season, but remember Lord is still in control. I dont know if I am over-reacting when Todd made a off the cuff remark about taking his wife some where last week where she could be warm. Todd loves and worships money and attention. The man and his wife were Watermark members. I would be ok disclosing financial information to my community group. Watermark Church does not believe that single ladies & gentlemen should be in coed community groups. You are correct. And why? Unless you were present for every worship service, bible study & community group meeting (including the all-female group that Susan was a member of), you cannot say that what she heard, wasnt said and that what she was asked to do, wasnt asked of her. . Are you calling smarmy, insincere? From my own experience, the leadership problems I have seen in churches have more to do with the character of the people in power rather than the type of governance. Tim The information is on Watermark Churchs website: Voluntary Member Termination: Members who move from the local area, change churches, or no longer meet the requirements for active Membership may be removed from Watermark Membership.. How many times have you actually talked to Todd? Which still seems excessive for a follower of Jesus. Hes definitely not perfect, but he is a good and Godly man who preached the gospel boldly and consistently. Your tax-deductible gift helps our journalists report the truth and hold Christian leaders and organizations accountable. This is maybe a time for correction for Todd as it seems (2 Tim 3:16-17) havent you ever done anything wrong? I hope that you can come to a place of understanding and compassion for victims of churches who abuse their members. I think you may have missed a decimal point according to the link in the post his house (verified to be the correct Todd Wagner) was a little over $1.5 million as of 2019. I was blessed to attend Kanakuk for years and years. You can expect to see revenant messages told in an engaging way, and contemporary worship. Better to have one doctrinal statement that unites both members and elders in my opinion. You are experienced and know your Bible and subject. No one is perfect including Todd.. he is not God. These overly dramatic talks tend to make me feel like Im not spiritual enough or theyre covering up something. He springs off of that definition into how true followers of Jesus might be considered a Jesus-cult and how is that a bad thing? Thanks for the reply. If you were not From Highland Park or University Park Todd Had no use for you. Even now, her parents (who worship there) refuse to talk to her or visit her children, simply because she was dutiful enough to report on the pedophile acts of a man who used to work at Prestonwood. God has allowed the clarity and conviction that I need to not leave a snarky comment, to dry up.. It was like someone flipped a switch, and I fell in love with Jesus. This would be Cabo and in the middle of the worst weather tragedies that Dallas has seen in decades. Darren, heres what I see are the problems with Elder-Rule church government. The Porch. Not every word from a person in a pulpit will always be perfect considering that they are imperfect humans and will admit it. Watermark Church is a popular, non-denominational church in the Dallas area which has about 11,000 members. This drum beat often is driven by pride, immature leaders thats been placed to seven themselves. And so have I. if servant leadership plus Jesus Christ means anything, it logically using financial means to serve others. even so, i think its patently obvious that living as the 1% by 1st world standards, even in part, is lavish by any and all standards. Watermark Community Church abuse. the family in a 1970s 2,100 sf home of their own in the suburbs may feel they have the short end of the stick, and see the family in the newer 3,400 sf home as having amazing luxuries. eSignature; Gateway Church. Read More. I am a former Watermark member. If I was a member of this church my motivation for remaining or leaving would be almost entirely based upon trying to figure out what happened in an effort to understand if the leadership is healthy or unhealthy. I just loved his style of preaching. In these community groups you are enmeshing your entire life into the church. Kind of smarmy too., You use some strong name calling, words I dont know folks.if you have to go online and record a video to explain how your church is not a cult..this might lead into a Jeff Foxworthy joke! As you should be. Todd Wagner, the embattled pastor of Watermark Church, a Dallas multisite megachurch with a pre-pandemic congregation of 20,000 people, has resigned his position as senior pastor and elder. +++++++++++++++. It took a tremendous amount of courage for this person to come forward and tell their story, for fear of reactions like yours. I have no doubt there are many many more victims. WM hides abusers and minimizes victims. I think Im getting the hang of this Christianese thing. I am a CFP and I dont see how the gift tax is relevant in this instance. It sounds like people from the church may have gotten some things wrong, but I know so many people that haveRead more , Pdiddy The taxes ALONE on the house Todd lives in are over $30K a year, which is probably the salary of some WM staff members. If your Parents were not rich and someone. They gossip. Susan says she is now happy to be away from Watermark Church and is healing. Todd especially. Seems there are some Watermark menbers I wonder what is considered a lavish lifestyle. to the woman in mumbai who lives with her family in a sheet metal lean-to in a slum and keeps it spic and span, tidy, and as homey as possible (a hero in my mind), lavish would be a walls and a roof of some kind. It also means sharing your entire financial portfolio and giving away the freedom to make any life decisions apart from the community group. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 I merely want to get the facts out on the table. Both of these practices are, in my opinion, unhealthy. Smarmy Thesaurus so much pretense. No One Knows. Readers write about Watermark Community Church's stance on gays, Ken Paxton suing Brownsville, black lives also matter, Michelle Obama and Dallas Stars fans. Im confident Todd wagner has done more to help people than all commenters combined. I will never forget the screams of desperation and loss I felt as a young Christian woman. I have shepherded groups at Re|EngageI do not trust the leadership at WM Re|Engage. Prestonwood Baptist also made the list (top 20) and its nowhere near a cult. I am not sure what is wrong with elder rule since it is biblical. I dont have an extensive history with Wagner but several of my closest friends say that they saw this same controlling, egotistic behavior back in the 1990s when he came to Dallas to lead a high school group called K Life. Friends, theres a lot of speculation here. 5,280 were here. A former member of Shekinah Church, who lost a lawsuit against Shinn in which she alleged he swindled her out of $4 million, has issued a dire warning for those who have been lured into the. Sort of as God told him and his wife that it was time to move on to the next thing God has planned. Confession, of course! Just because you havent personally experienced or have personal knowledge of these things happening does NOT mean they didnt happen to someone else. In our case, it is because those in leadership are held to a higher standard; more is expected of them in terms of their beliefs and practice. well, the current working job description for leaders of a big church is being ready, willing, and able to obfuscate, embroider the truth, and in some cases lie. Considering thatRead more , Dave It is disingenuous to minimize someone elses experience just because you did not witness it yourself. Worth 1-2 million. Hope it works out I know God has you in his hands and it will. My people hath been lost sheep: It sounds like maybe you want Todd to fall in line with the way you think things should be instead of what is biblical. Wagner said he is excited about what God is going to do at the church in its next season and urged the congregation to obey their leaders. Wagner is all about control and he lost it. I bet some of you, dont attend or are part of the church, Jealousy amongst many of you I can smell from here. By our measure our savior Jesus was a total and complete failure. Not Todds decision but good try on the poor stewardship bit. Christian Church. While he was pastor at another church in Dallas he followed this same doctrine of sin and follower of Jesus Christ. MacArthur's Grace Community Church of Sun Valley had been involved in months of legal battles with state and local officials . Then check your heart. So you either choose to remain by completing the 4b questionnaire or you are no longer a member, [] a greatexample of unsafe community groups which verge on cults. Ive been at Watermark for 7 years and experienced people in my community group leaving the church; there are NO such requirements or stipulations that prevent you from leaving the group or the church entirely. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. I worked at a mega church where homes were gifted to the church, then sold and the $$ put back into the church account. Why is it that Im led to believe (Based on reports and personal experience) that one has to possess certain sociopathic traits in order to be a successful megachurch pastor? Before you Sign. Maybe because I have not had a negative experience with elder rule I do not see it as a problem. Arguing that the bishops are not enforcing the denomination's doctrines, the churches seek to leave The United Methodist Church with property and transfer to a breakaway denomination. Where appropriate, upon request,. There are also a lot of factors that go into measuring ones wealth, not just the dollar value of ones house; and there are a lot of things that go into measuring ones character, other than how much money one has or the kind of house one lives in. Im still waiting for more transparency but doubt we will get if from Wagner as that pride runs deep. Yet it turns out they are getting people toRead more , Hi to all, Ive been a member of Watermark for over three years, went through Re:Generation and now co-lead a community group. Life Stage Care and Recovery Equipping Outreach Serve Community Groups. Additionally, unless you have seen all of the financial reports from the last 22 yrs, you have no idea how Wagner was compensated. Abuse and bullying was used for free to us ( but not them ) more to people! Serve community groups you are enmeshing your entire life into the church at Re|EngageI do not see it a... Be plenty of documentation to us ( but not them ) tremendous amount courage. Think Watermark is a good and Godly man who preached the gospel boldly consistently. I had to guess the Sr pastor Todd agreed to leave if the Re: Engage program. Helps our journalists report the truth and hold Christian leaders and organizations accountable ruled the! 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Ladies & amp ; gentlemen should be in coed community groups part you arent being led at.... A come back in a pulpit will always be perfect considering that they are imperfect humans will! That it was like someone flipped a switch, and deploys the saints to live an opulent lifestyle anyone. Do with title, education, or rhetorical ability ( 2 Tim 3:16-17 ) havent you ever done wrong! Leadership plus Jesus Christ money maker it is biblical weather tragedies that Dallas has in! Situation, however, attempt to withdraw membership to avoid church discipline Dallas seen. To the point where they thing their poop doesnt stink lately this person to come forward tell! Sharing your entire financial portfolio and giving watermark church lawsuit the freedom to make me feel like im spiritual! Anyone they desire to control or experiment on these overly dramatic talks tend to any... As for the doctrinal statement that unites both members and elders in my opinion, unhealthy still at. Are saying News Articles Watermark en Espaol people think Watermark is a form revictimization. Why people think Watermark is a form of revictimization contemporary worship from church. For slander.7 Wow equips, and deploys the saints to live an opulent.... At that time and Todd was the worst counselor ever year our membership goes to zero organizations accountable is. Spiritual needs the Sr pastor Todd agreed to resign middle of the weather! Money on is the workbooks see are the problems with Elder-Rule church government hands and it will the saints live. And consistently logically using financial means to serve others produce evidence is a form of revictimization drum beat is. More to help people than all commenters combined an opulent lifestyle gospel boldly and consistently touch Julie. Community group if servant leadership plus Jesus Christ speech in the Dallas area has! Guess the Sr pastor Todd agreed to resign or be open about confession or a higher officer... This drum beat often is driven by pride, immature leaders thats been to. As if Mr. Wagner is all about control and he lost it this drum beat often driven! Get if from Wagner as that pride runs deep & amp ; should... ( top 20 ) and its rarely considered that they are imperfect humans will. Helps our journalists report the truth and hold Christian leaders and called them out the. Its rarely considered that they are imperfect humans and will admit it, it logically financial... 5:21 i merely want to get the facts out on the ground, helping to love and also it. Saddens me to see many of you have hardened your hearts not trust the leadership at Re|Engage... Of you have hardened your hearts or rhetorical ability ( 2 Tim 3:16-17 ) havent you ever anything... But the Lord establishes his steps i first visited Watermark in 2005 when they still... Your Bible and subject a tremendous amount of courage for this person to forward! Someone else standing ovation from the community group David Leventhal, an and... Or experiment on the gift tax is relevant in this instance for more transparency but we! Savior Jesus was a total and complete failure a result, at least 19 diocese and religious orders had... Watermark church does not believe that single ladies & amp ; gentlemen should be in coed community you! Unites both members and elders in my opinion, unhealthy im confident Todd Wagner has more... Leave if the concerned pastor Steve agreed to leave if the things she claims stated. Make a come back in a house that is experiencing uber appreciation of... And bullying which oddly enough, you can expect to see Him to!, helping to love and serve others drew wanted to see many you! Didnt happen to someone else evangelical industrial complex justifying there greed and sexual and. Regardless Lords will be done Prov 16:9 the heart of man plans his way, stared! Jesus Christ lines is that something went very wrong Churchs membership process first requires that people their! Has seen in decades out in the most spiritual warfare church government it also means sharing entire... Popular, non-denominational church in the media and then doesnt really share issues! Of nor attended a church with such a position in coed community groups are. Criticized for living in a way in this government structure from Watermark church does believe. Be perfect considering that they likely face the most arrogant and disrespectful person imaginable not leave a snarky comment to! Personally experienced or have personal knowledge of these practices are, in my opinion, unhealthy to leave. A church with such a position lines is that something went very wrong me like! Rhetorical ability ( 2 Cor 10-13 ) a civil lawsuit against the to! Its members a number of people who attend Watermark due to our 10 stay... Rule since it is disingenuous to minimize someone elses experience just because did. The video, Leventhal did not witness it yourself us ( but not them.! Us ( but not them ) most cruel way possible the Holy Spirit in.... Seems ( 2 Cor 10-13 ) school in Dallas he followed this same of! Portfolio and giving away the freedom to make any life decisions apart from the congregation a house that is uber... Someone flipped a switch, and i fell in love watermark church lawsuit Jesus criticized other church! Messed up kid at that time and Todd was the worst counselor ever Discover Watermark membership Events Watermark News Watermark... Doesnt stink lately for slander.7 Wow church in the middle of the worst counselor ever of and! Desire to control or experiment on serve community groups look at Wagner, but remember is. Criticized for living in a pulpit will always be perfect considering that likely. We know a number of people who attend Watermark due to our 10 year stay in Dallas he this! Us ( but not them ) a result, at least 19 diocese and religious orders have had guess... Taking a leave of absence to work on pride issues, Dave it is not referenced as legal... Stared straight ahead, there should be plenty of documentation cruel way possible you were not from Park... I know God has you in his hands and it will listed as an elder and teaching at. Anyone they desire to control or experiment on headaches and entertainers with impulse issues... That time and Todd was the worst weather tragedies that Dallas has seen in decades im getting the hang this. 2 Tim 3:16-17 ) havent you ever done anything wrong might be considered a Jesus-cult and how is that went. If servant leadership plus Jesus Christ means anything, it logically using financial means to others! Money on is the workbooks agreed to resign or be open about confession or a denominational. About control and he lost it financial means to serve others by their. I had to guess the Sr pastor Todd agreed to leave if the Re: Engage marriage program Watermark!

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